​​The Tech Behind Meat Alternatives​

This Transcript is AI-Generated

Edwina Romanens: We believe at Planted that this meat can be replaced or can in the future just be the protein source. So it doesn't have to be a meat or a meat replacement, but it could also be something else.

Dana: Plant based meat alternatives have been having a moment. The demand for sustainable, healthy and ethical products has skyrocketed, but the real game changer?They just keep getting tastier. 

Edwina Romanens: The technology behind these alternative proteins is advancing rapidly, and a lot of that technology comes from pretty surprising places.E xtrusion was first used for  steel production. 

Micah: For a while, replication of the meat products we're so used to has been the goal. But as the technology and industry continues to evolve, could we see a world where the protein on our plates is rethought entirely? In this episode, we explore the technology that made the plant based protein taste revolution possible, and we look toward the future to see the possibilities on the horizon and beyond.

Dana: I'm Dana Clemenson. 

Micah: And I'm Micah Schweitzer. This is Balancing the Future from Mettler Toledo.

Dana: Despite their recent surge in popularity, Plant based protein alternatives aren't new, and they haven't always been linked to sustainable or ethical food movements. Humans have been consuming tofu for roughly 2, 000 years now. In the latter half of the 20th century, tofu and tempeh products started to rise in demand all over the world in parallel with the rise in vegetarian and vegan diets.

Edwina Romanens: These are products that existed for a long time, as you say, and I think that in Switzerland or other European or Western countries, it's not that much in our tradition to cook with these products. So that's where like this new generation of plant based meats comes in because we really try to mimic. The features and also how to cook these products.

Looking at the animal counterpart. 

Dana: That's the voice of Edwina Romanens. She's a former lead scientist in biotechnology at Planted. They're a plant-based food company in Switzerland, specializing in meat alternatives. Edwina Romanens spearheaded the research and implementation of cutting edge biotech processes for developing new plant-based meat products from lab to an industrial scale.

Micah: So you work in the lab at Planted. Obviously, you also have your own kitchen at home. Do you use the products you make at home? 

Edwina Romanens: Yes. I mean, I consume a lot at work for tastings and also in our cafeteria. But I also love the, the steak and my favorite application is, uh, now barbecue season on the grill. I think the, the smoke really adds like this lost tiny, uh, taste, um, 

Dana: or 

Edwina Romanens: the flavor.

Dana: It's really amazing. She's about to take us on the technology journey that got us from tofu to imitation steak. But first, let's learn why she got on that journey. 

Micah: So a lot of details for us to get into over the course of our conversation, but if I can pull back to the bigger picture, what fascinates you about plant based meat alternatives?

Edwina Romanens: It's something that is needed really to move to a more sustainable food consumption because animal based meat production is consuming a lot of energy. It makes up for almost 20 percent of CO2 or greenhouse gas emissions. So I think that's why I work in this sector because I believe in this transition to.

alternative proteins. And specifically, I've always been fascinated in, um, fermentation with this microorganisms that have such a power in transforming foods or food components into something more valuable for our body. If 

Micah: we start the timeline with tofu in 200 BCE China, then we have to fast forward quite a bit to reach the next major technological leap in plant based foods.

This breakthrough, however, didn't happen anywhere near a kitchen. 

Edwina Romanens: Most of the technologies that are used today in the production or that are still investigated or originate from other industries, let's say, for example, extrusion was first used for steel production. Then in early 1930s, it was first used for pasta and cereal production.

So that was called the dry extrusion. And, uh, Later on, it was then also first used for high moisture extrusion, but really in a bigger scale, it's only recently used. I think in, for most of these technologies, the usage for bigger amounts is only quite recent or that also more companies are evolving. 

Micah: That technology found its way to the plant based meat industry because of its ability to mimic the fibrous texture of animal meat.

Edwina Romanens: In extrusion, you mix actually the protein powder with water and oil. And with the high temperatures, the proteins are melted and aligned in a fibrous way. At the end of the extruder, you have the cooling dye. where you stabilize this fibrous texture, and that's how the muscle fibers are created on a bigger scale.

Micah: This technology follows a top down approach. 

Edwina Romanens: There are two types of approaches in mimicking muscle fibers. There is the bottom up and the top down approach. So bottom up really looks at how can you on a micrometer scale, for example, mimic the muscle fibers. So, for example, corn, like with the, um, fungal mycelium is one, uh, example.

There is also an example of fiber spinning, uh, technology that's just recently evolved. And there is the top down approach where you mimic the muscle fibers on a larger scale. 

Micah: Extrusion was pivotal in mimicking meat textures, and because of it, we got one of the earliest forms of plant based alternatives as we know them today, TVP, or textured vegetable protein.

But texture isn't everything. There are a few other major components consumers are looking for. One being taste, and the other being nutrition. So as we look into the future, we actually need to look even further into the past, to a technology that has been around since the dawn of civilization. 

Edwina Romanens: In a like a more traditional or biochemic definition, fermentation is a way of extracting energy from carbs through in anaerobic conditions through microorganisms.

yeast. So microorganisms are, can be a bacteria, yeasts or fungi. But today in this space of food or more specifically plant based food, we define fermentation as three main topics, the traditional fermentation. So traditionally fermented foods are things you probably all know like yogurt, bread, beer, wine.

But also more exotic products like kimchi, tempeh. or miso, soy sauce. Then there is this area of precision fermentation, where microorganisms are used as cell factories to produce single, um, molecules, uh, products, like can be a protein, or it can be a vitamin, like B12. And then, um, the cells are actually, or the microorganisms are separated from the final product.

So you don't eat the microorganism. And the third part is the biobass fermentation. And in biomass fermentation, for example, fungal mycelium is produced. I mentioned before. Corn as an example of producing fungal biomass, but there are others and there you eat the whole microorganism in the end and this microprotein can, for example, be used in a final product in a plant based meat as an ingredient.

Micah: What are the benefits of working with fermentation as opposed to extrusion? 

Edwina Romanens: Fermentation can add with like one single ingredient, like our starter culture, can It can add at the same time texture and taste. So these microorganisms, they convert, for example, proteins into like smaller molecules, like into amino acids, peptides, and add umami flavor.

So, I think this is really some of the main benefits and also microorganisms can also decrease off flavors, like sometimes from the raw material we use, the products can taste a bit beany, you can still taste that in the product. And with fermentation, we can even remove some of these off flavors.

Fermentation 

Dana: is the main technology planted uses. But the way they use it is heavily driven by what people want. And what do they want? This is what Edwina Romanens says. I 

Edwina Romanens: think that a lot of consumers also look at health benefits. So a lot of consumers believe that switching to a more plant based nutrition brings them health benefits.

And I think that is and also needs to be a big driver of the industry. 

Dana: Of course, there's also the sustainability factor. Plant based protein alternatives have quite an advantage over traditional meat. 

Edwina Romanens: So in the case of the steak, of our fermented product, We use 97 percent less CO2 and 80 percent less water compared to a beefsteak.

Micah: And beefsteak, of course, is highly resource intensive as we know. So those are meaningful reductions. 

Edwina Romanens: Yeah, definitely. And there are per se no challenges. With this technology, of course, we have challenges that all food producers have to reduce waste or to use more energy friendly or resource friendly energy sources.

So these are things we are working on and trying to optimize continuously. But per se, our technology is much more advanced. resource or sustainability friendly than the meat production. 

Micah: You mentioned filtering out the microorganisms that do the fermentation work. What happens to them afterwards? Do they become waste?

Edwina Romanens: So in the traditional fermentation process, you eat the microorganisms. Because you have the food product, the substrate and the microorganisms and the microorganisms grow in the substrate and at the end you eat everything. It's a bit like in yogurt, you also eat the microorganisms with the final product.

But in precision fermentation, yes, there you filter out the microorganism. 

Micah: And what happens to them? 

Edwina Romanens: So in the case, if, for example, fungi, so filamentous fungi are used to produce a molecule, it could be interesting to use this as a fungal biomass then in a product. So as a side stream from the precision fermentation, combining basically precision fermentation Biomass fermentation, but I'm not actually sure if this is really done that way or if there are any regulatory or safety concerns why this cannot be 

Dana: done.

Let's talk about nutrition. As Edwina Romanens said, it's one of the main drivers of the industry. So what has this technology made possible when compared to traditional meat? 

Edwina Romanens: So the plant based meat alternatives are in general. more rich in fiber. Protein can be the same. So for example, for the steak, it's a bit lower compared to the beef steak.

For planted chicken, we are even a bit higher in protein compared to the animal counterpart. What is also an interesting aspect are the fats. So in animal meat, there are usually more saturated fats, whereas in our plant based meat products, we use mainly rapeseed oil and in some products also sunflower oil, which are really rich in unsaturated fatty acids.

So these are nutritional benefits that we have compared to the animal meat. 

Micah: But, can I ask, we see articles a lot now about the dangers of ultra high processed foods. So foods that are very far away from the actual raw material. Are we talking about ultra high processed food when we talk about plant based meat alternatives?

Edwina Romanens: You can't put all plant based products in one bucket, kind of, I don't know if you say that in English, but you need to differentiate between different plant based products. So at Planted, we, for example, really focus on clean label products. We don't add any additives. We only use natural ingredients for our products.

And as I said, we really focus to have a lot of unsaturated fatty acids, whereas ultra processed foods are often associated with high saturated fatty acids or really high in salt or sugar. So I think it's important for consumers to be critical when they. buy or consider to, yeah, eat or buy plant based foods and look at what are the ingredients, what are the nutritional aspects of this food.

I really think that plant based food is and can be healthier than animal meat, but it's not a given in every case. 

Micah: Today, the nutritional value of plant based meat products is a big focus for the industry, and an increased demand for a protein rich but balanced diet is only accelerating this drive. But what about the future?

Will consumers want something more than a product that replicates meat? This brings us to a key point we've been hinting at throughout this episode, the future possibilities as these products evolve beyond just replicating meat. As the technology advances, we're looking at a future where the very fundamentals of what we eat are being redefined.

Edwina Romanens: The perception we have of proteins is usually meat, or that's at least how I grew up and probably many people in, in Switzerland or also Europe grew up, that you have on your plate the meat and then the veggies and the carb source. And I think it's just important to have a larger choice, because today we are quite limited.

If we don't want to eat meat, then maybe there are a couple of meat alternatives or tofu tempeh. And in the future, we might have a wider choice and also a perception more as the protein source and not as the meat part. 

Micah: So even thinking about, yeah, what it's called on the plate a bit differently. 

Edwina Romanens: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: But before we get lost in our imaginations thinking about the future, let's step back into the present for a moment. Because no technology is without challenges, and fermentation is no exception. 

Dana: Is there any areas that the fermentation falls short? You know, we've got some sustainability benefits, nutrition, all these things with the taste of the meat.

But where are some places that it still needs improvement? 

Edwina Romanens: So fermentation takes a bit longer than extrusion, for example, so in extrusion, we can really extrude in a couple of hours or like even minutes. And for fermentation, of course, we talk more about maybe a day or two. So it adds a bit of processing time.

So what makes the technology currently a little bit more expensive? I don't think it's a big disadvantage, but of course, companies need to choose wisely what products they bring on, on the market with this technology, because it's not, uh, The most cheap way of producing, um, a meat alternative. 

Micah: One area to talk about is, is this idea of inventing new food.

Obviously, you're trying to mimic steak or chicken, which is very old food in some sense. But you're also inventing new processes to do these things. And, and in the process, you're inventing new food that didn't exist before. Are, are consumers distrustful of newly invented food, of technology based food? 

Edwina Romanens: I think the most distrust that I feel is towards the, the processing.

I mean, what we do with extrusion is basically something comparable with baking bread or Producing pasta, and just because these are really old, traditional foods, people trust them. But with extrusion, they need to be convinced first, as an example. 

Micah: So how do you convince them that it's just a cooking process?

That it's okay, that it's not unhealthy? 

Edwina Romanens: Yeah, we try to be transparent and inform the consumer what we do. We also show our production actually in Kemptal where we are based. You can eat in a vegan restaurant and at the same time see through a glass window how our products are extruded. So, that's a bit how we try to, to gain the trust of consumers.

Micah: As you say, the goal is to have broader and broader adoption of plant based meat alternatives. What challenges do you see in the coming years? 

Edwina Romanens: One challenge that a lot of companies have is also the supply chain and to source also locally produced proteins. So currently we are sourcing proteins. still from Europe.

And it's a goal of us to source the proteins more locally from Switzerland. And there, we also need to adapt, for example, the varieties to the food application because most of the yellow peas are still produced for feed, animal feed, and these don't work for our food products. So, there is also a challenge and a shift happening in the supply chain in the raw materials.

Micah: Some of these challenges, Edwina Romanens believes, can be helped with better support for the industry. 

Edwina Romanens: On a regulatory side, often, but now in extrusion also, just in a government side, it's important that there is more support for these alternative protein sources. I think for animal meat or in general animal products, there are still a lot of subsidiaries and a lot of support.

And this is a bit what we are missing sometimes in this alternative protein sector. 

Dana: And there is one last wild card that impacts the future of plant based alternatives. It's something we spoke about in our first episode with Stephen Lang, cultivated meat. But Edwina Romanens says this isn't a matter of competition.

Edwina Romanens: I think we need a lot of alternative protein sources if we want to replace a substantial part of the animal meat consumption that we have today. So I think personally that all technologies are needed. Cell based meat will still take a while to be cost efficient and we will be able to produce it at scale because we face still major challenges.

Like costs of the medium and like, for example, these growth factors and amino acids that are used, they are still way too expensive. And also the fermenter capacity is, uh, that we have currently worldwide is way too small to even replace like half a percent of today's meat consumption. I think there will be a need for some hybrid products.

Where these cell based meats are combined with a plant based meat components to make the products more commercially viable to reduce the price. And so I don't think that plant based meat will be replaced by cell based meat. Also because it's a completely different product. I mean, cell based meat really is like meat in the end.

So I think that in the future. Or I hope that we will have like a variety of products and that the cell based meat along like in parallel with the plant based meat will evolve and yeah, give us more choice of alternative proteins. 

Micah: You mentioned that cell based meat currently can replace a minuscule proportion of the protein.

Total amount of meat consumed worldwide. Do you have a sense of how much of the world's meat consumption can be replaced by plant based meat alternatives? 

Edwina Romanens: So I know that plant based milk is currently in milk dollars. accounts for 15 percent of the market and I think if we could in a couple of years achieve a similar figure or even replacing 50 percent of the up to 50 percent of the market will be an amazing achievement.

Micah: Today, almost every grocery store has entire sections dedicated to plant based protein alternatives, offering everything from chicken breasts to steaks and ribs, virtually any type of meat you could want. But according to Edwina Romanens, this is just the start. 

Edwina Romanens: People need to stay curious with the products. Uh, try again and again, because these products are evolving very fast.

Even if you try a couple of times, the same product, it might be that, uh, the technology, the processes, the raw materials have improved in the meantime, even though it's the same product. And. Yeah, to give these products a chance to convince you, but also to stay critical and not like just to assume that plant based products are per se healthier than the animal meats, but that you also carefully evaluate if this fits your diet in terms of fats and additives.

Yeah. You are not, um, disappointed by the product in the end. I think that's also important. 

Micah: And what I hear you saying throughout our conversation is it's always this balance, obviously sustainability is important, but if it's not healthy or if it's not tasty, that's not what's going to change consumer behavior or lead to these products being adopted on a wide scale.

Edwina Romanens: Yes. I think that in order to have a sustainable change or to sustainably change consumer behavior, People, maybe in the beginning, they are interested in this new product. They will buy it. They will try a couple of recipes with this new product, but to really change the habits on a long term, the products need to convince people.

by, yeah, health and taste 

Dana: benefits. What are some milestones and some kind of goals for this plant based food technology? 

Edwina Romanens: Yeah. So I think that it will be really important to meet consumer expectancies. in terms of products, in terms of health and taste. So I think there is still a need of more healthy and more tasty products.

And I think that a lot of these more recent technologies that, uh, are evolving like this fiber spinning or. Also, there is also another technology called shear cell technology that is a bit similar to the extrusion technology in terms that it's a top down method. I think there are no products on the market yet and there needs some technological advancement for these companies to be able to come up with their.

with products that are viable on the market.

Dana: That, again, was Edwina Romanens Romanos, a lead scientist in biotechnology at Planted. That was a really interesting and fun conversation that we had with Edwina Romanens, wasn't it, Micah? 

Micah: Absolutely fascinating. I mean, for me, when she talked about the roots of plant based food being in the steel and textile industries, It was such a surprise.

But at the same time, I mean, isn't that how science works? Right? I mean, nothing exists in a vacuum. Um, we're always learning from one another. 

Dana: Definitely. It's really cool that we've utilized technology like fermentation that's been around for so long to create something so modern. I have a question for you.

What are you looking forward to the most? with plant based alternative, with plant based meats. 

Micah: I mean, for me, it's this idea that there's new food being developed, or new food on the horizon. And I think there's another place where, you know, you sort of think food is food, right? Chicken is chicken, or, or, I don't know, asparagus is asparagus.

And yet, Um, you know, if you look at historical cookbooks, like a Roman cookbook or, or Elizabethan England, you see things that you think, Oh, we don't, I wouldn't eat that, or we don't eat that anymore. And so, I don't know, it feels natural to me that, that food would evolve like it is now. 

Dana: Absolutely. I'm really excited to see what our dinner plates are going to look like in 30 years from now.

Right? 

Micah: Right. Exactly. Exactly. I wonder if, I don't know, 30, 50, a hundred years from now, if somebody. Doesn't look back at the food of the early 20th century and think, huh, that's weird. They eat that? True and I mean in terms of like, you know that they that they really they ate they killed chickens to eat them weird 

Dana: Yeah, right, right.

I think what's really cool is just to see like the knock on effect, you know, are we gonna become Healthier safer. There's so many questions that are still unanswered and it'll be interesting to see what happens 

Micah: Yeah. And what does it mean, you know, environmentally? What does it mean in terms of food security for the global population?

I think there's so many interesting places that this plays out. 

Dana: For sure. One thing I think about this episode is that it's a very interesting kind of parallel with our previous episode on cultivated meat with Stephen Lang. 

Micah: Yeah, exactly. And I think to me, it's interesting what Edwina Romanens says that these are not competing concepts that they can work together.

Yeah. Really, all it's doing is diversifying what's on our plate and the food sources that we have available to us. So if you haven't listened to that episode yet, there's a link to it in the show notes and it's, uh, it's certainly worth a listen because we don't even stay on earth for the whole thing.

Dana: Thanks for listening to Balancing the Future from Mettler Toledo. 

Micah: What questions about science or technology do you have that you want answered in future episodes? 

Dana: Let us know by leaving a review. Or if you're a Spotify user in the comment section. 

Micah: And be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Dana: See you in two weeks.