Co-founder Two Drifters Distillery
Russ Wakeham blends his chemistry expertise in carbon capture with a passion for sustainability and rum. Together with his wife Gemma, he’s pioneering the world’s first carbon-negative rum, proving that exceptional spirits can inspire meaningful conversations and action about climate change and a more sustainable future.
This Transcript is AI-Generated
Russ Wakeham: In an idealist world, you'd like the carbon tax the way that we built it into our business to be mandated.
Chai: Today's guest is turning the spirits industry on its head with a distillery that makes carbon negative rum from day one. This operation was built to be sustainable. So here's the big question. Could this be a blueprint for the rest of the business world?
Russ Wakeham: If you had that, then you'd have a way to drive those two things together.
Yeah. Profitability and sustainability would directly move together because it would hit you hard. Equally, the cost of carbon removal would come down very quickly because there'd be a lot more incentive to get the carbon removed and gone.
Micah: In this episode, we're breaking down how a carbon negative business model works.
We'll walk through its supply chain, see how RUM becomes a conversation starter for climate action, and dig into what it really takes to make a sustainable business succeed.
Chai: I'm Chai Nussbaumer.
Micah: And I'm Micah Schweitzer. This is Balancing the Future from METTLER TOLEDO.
Chai: On this show, we delve into the world of science and technology and explore its transformative impact on our lives.
Micah: Can you tell us about how, or sort of what chemistry, a background in chemistry has to do with being a rum distiller?
Russ Wakeham: So chemistry linking to distilling is natural, right? It's a natural progression. It's just an outlet for your chemistry that you can consume.
Chai: That's the voice of Russ Wakeham Wakeham, co-founder of the two Drifters Distillery.
Russ Wakeham: That's the main thing. That's the kind of link, and then it's a giant chemistry lab that you have as a distillery. There's options for all kinds of research in all the different parts of the process, and it's fascinating for that reason. Yeah, so it's a natural progression, I'd say for a c.
Micah: Could you just for a little bit of background, give us a very sort of simple overview of the distilling process.
Like what are the major movements between the raw product and the consumable beverage?
Russ Wakeham: Sure. Yeah. You have to go back one step, which is the fermentation. So rum is kind of free of rules. It's quite, uh, unique in that respect. In the spirits game. The only rule is it's gotta be made from something from sugar cane.
And for us, we choose the molasses part of sugar cane. And then you ferment. That takes about a week and then you get something like a 10 or 11% alcohol produced from that. That then gets transferred to your first still. So a still is just a kettle. You bring everything up to the boil and what happens is vapor starts coming off, and that's ethanol obviously boiling at 80 odd.
And so all the different fractions that are in there boil over. Initially, in the first distillation, you collected all that's called a stripping run, and you essentially strip all of the alcohol away from your wash as it's called, which is the molasses fermented with water and yeast that then gets transferred to a secondary.
Distillation. So the second part, you, you're a bit more careful about the fractions you're taking off. So you wanna remove some of the dangerous components, which are kind of methanol, but you also want to get rid of early fractions, which are methyl acetate, acetone solvents. Basically they give you a nasty hangover, uh, in cheaper alcohol.
But basically you get rid of those, those are called heads, and then you move into collecting. The hearts, which is the run that you're after the whole thing. Right? So you've got a distillation phase there. Temperatures are kind of 80 to 88 degrees SIUs. Yeah. Uh, by the time you go across to 88, you start moving into the end of the distillation, and that's called the tails phase.
Those are much longer alcohols, kind of fatty bits as well. So those. Those kinda make your product cloudy and don't taste very nice. So you don't want them in there either. And once you've done that, you collect up all of your hearts together. That forms the basis of every product that we produce. So that's, that's the basic process of producing the rum.
Chai: So what has inspired you to prioritize carbon negativity in your business model from the very beginning, and how did this vision shape your initial operation decisions?
Russ Wakeham: Yeah, so it's a big question because it covers quite a lot of what the business does, but the inspiration in particular comes from the chemistry that I used to do.
So the research that I did in my last research position, which was in Swansea in Wales. Was investigating carbon capture, carbon storage, trying to turn CO2 into any product that had value. Obviously if it has value, people might hold onto it a bit more and not chuck it into the atmosphere. We went to a lot of CO2 conferences and met some cool people doing technologies that could basically change the world, and one of those was KindWorks, and they're amazing.
Technology is direct air capture technology that sucks. CO2 out the air. Goes through a secondary process that fixes it and mineralizes it and it's permanently stored underground. And that blew my mind as kind of magic at the time. Still kind of does, but we thought at the time, how do we integrate that into the distillery?
You know, I wanted to move away from academia. I actually wanted a way to talk to people about this exact, uh, problem. And you can get a lot more people to listen to you if you bring a bit of rum to the party. You know,
Micah: I think it might make sense to talk about scope one, two, and three emissions in the context of your business because obviously there's a range of sources for carbon emissions in any supply chain. In any business operation, and scopes one and two are the result of your direct operations. But scope three, which is actually for most businesses, the largest part of their emissions is of course, indirect and harder to control because it's upstream in the supply chain or downstream in the usage or delivery of the product.
And so how does carbon negativity in your business fit into the scope? 1, 2, 3, matrix.
Russ Wakeham: It's tough because of the way you just have to think about it now. I actually don't think about it in those terms because the way that we approach the carbon negativity is to think about the product. Can you make the product carbon negative?
And if you look at it from that perspective, you need to do a slightly different calculation, although it ends up overlapping a great deal. And scope one, two, and three are just about. Avoiding double counting. Right. So the the point is that the way that we approach it to understand our footprint and achieve carbon negativity is to measure exactly what the impact is.
So if I take a bottle of rum, for example, so you have to go back to. The raw materials, right? The cradle for us, the sugar's the easiest one to think of. It's the biggest ingredient, and you've got a plantation where sugar's growing. You've got farm machinery, irrigation, fertilizers, pesticides, all of that stuff to, to grow the actual crop.
Then you've got farm machinery again, harvesting. There's emissions associated with all of these things. You work the way through to the actual milling of the first. Stage of the sugar cane. We produce a fiber waste and then you've got your raw sugar for us. It then moves on a boat. We make an assumption in our calculation that it's from Brazil, 'cause it's probably the most biggest distance and the most emissions in our supply chain.
So that's why we choose Brazil, Brazil to North Africa, where the actual molasses we buy comes from. But that journey, the raw sugar, that's a big impact. Right. And now I've got no control. Exactly as you said. Then you move on to thinking about how it gets up to the uk. North Africa to UK is another boat of course, but you've got a refining process in between that's more emissions.
And then finally for us, it arrives in Bristol and comes down the motorway, the M five to us and burned more diesel. Right. And like you said before, we've done a single thing. All of that's been caused because we wanted to produce rum in, in Devon, in next to where we are. So we own that. So that forms part of bringing stuff, and you apply that to every ingredient that goes in and it matters where you source your ingredients from.
Then you've got the bit you can control, like you said. I guess those are your scope. One, two, there's no scope. One, two really in the distillery because we have fully electric, a hundred percent renewable, we've got control over that.
Chai: While rest walks us through how scope one, two, and three emissions impact his work, let's zoom out for a second and break down what those numbers mean and why they matter.
Micah: The scope one, two, and three categories came out of the Greenhouse Gas protocol of the early two thousands. It's a global standard created to help businesses and governments measure and report their emissions
Chai: scope. One covers direct emissions from things a company owns or controls, like fuel burned on site.
Micah: Scope two is indirect emissions from the energy they buy, like electricity.
Chai: Scope three. That's the big one. All the other emissions up and down the supply chain from suppliers to customers.
Micah: This framework forces organizations to take a hard look at their entire footprint, not just what's happening in-house.
Russ Wakeham: Then you gotta think about how you get it to your customer, right? That's the first part of the downstream. I guess you've got a choice between couriers, but it's who you're sending it to. So for our website orders for, um, local deliveries, it's easy. You know, we have an electric van parked out here at the distillery that does the local deliveries charged from renewable energy.
When you move on to sending it to website orders, you can use for us DPD, they're a carbon neutral courier. The problem comes when you get to pallets, right? So you send pallets to wholesalers who sell it to various different bars all over the country. And actually all over the world. And that comes with a price, right?
So there's the CO2 emission, so you have to include that in your calculation. Then you move on and you get to the bars, and the bars have nice lighting, some warmth, so there's a bit of heat. There's probably an ice cube in your drink, and all of that causes emissions too. So you move on to that. Then you know someone really enjoys their cocktail.
Fantastic. The bartender then will recycle the glass bottle. Right. That will go into recycling and all the other components of, of the packaging. And that of course causes more emissions. 'cause the l that picks up the recycling is burning diesel and it goes to a recycling center that's also causing emissions and, and so on and so on.
I really could talk about this a long time. I will shut up soon. But the point is you end up with that massive picture and that is the product footprint, right? The lifecycle assessment of that product.
Chai: Yeah. No, that's a great picture of how you think about each step and tackle each step of the process to make sure that you are carbon negative.
Yeah. But let's transition to talk about the packaging of your product. It must also add to the carbon emissions, uh, sustainability. What has been your strategy and decisions to tackle making your packaging sustainable as well?
Russ Wakeham: Often heavy glass bottles are moved around large distances, and that's an unnecessary use of the carbon emissions caused by that transport.
And until that's decarbonized, it remains an issue. So the packaging is very important and the weight of the glass matters. So we initially started thinking that we needed to have a very thick, heavy bottom to look premium and feel premium. 'cause you've still gotta sell a product. You've still gotta be a business.
But that of course is nuts. If you then start having to pay, which is the key point, to remove the CO2 and mineralize it, so you think, Hey, okay, we need an alternative for this. Equally, when we dug into the supply chain there, the glass is an interesting one because it has a convoluted route to the uk.
It's Italian glass, but it goes to Slovenia, comes back to France, to the uk, and then it's distributed all over the place. And that's mind blowing just to have that. So now we buy it straight from the. Glass manufacturers for us in Leeds Yorkshire, and uh, it just comes down to the distillery. Much smaller distance, but it's also 300 grams lighter per package.
When you start adding that up across millions of bottles of rum sold to make the business successful, it's a big impact and it's a massive reduction in the CO2. Other point is that it matters where it's being consumed to me, where the packaging really matters. So just to give an example, we have an aluminum miniature.
Which is specifically for airlines. So if you are flying on an aircraft, it matters how heavy your bottle is there, and it matters a lot more than the recyclability of the material. My issue is that aluminum, of course, is huge impact in producing the Virgin stuff, but the actual aluminum component is a hundred percent and infinitely recyclable.
You know, it's, it's possible to keep that loop closed ish, but it has a plastic liner, and so for those reasons, we tend to shy away from it when we're on the ground. When you're in the air, there's actually a much bigger carbon saving to be had by switching to the lighter aluminum versus that. That's the key.
Decision. That's how we think about it.
Micah: So you're doing a quite a comprehensive and complicated calculation of the carbon impact of your business, and you've decided to partner with Clime works to mitigate that impact, to take that equivalent amount of CO2 out of the atmosphere. But this is, I assume, a higher carbon price than the standard rate.
Russ Wakeham: Significantly higher.
Micah: Yeah. So what kind of a business decision is that?
Russ Wakeham: A cool one. So the, the point is that that high price is critical right now to making us think differently about what we do. So. It acts as an internal carbon tax. It's very much thought of like that, right? It's an expensive way to remove carbon.
It's the most expensive because it's the most premium product in any kind of carbon removal scale, right? It's measurable to very accurate levels and it's permanent storage. The point is though, that that expense drives your decision making, so it sits for us. Under our cost of making goods, right? It's the Cox are there.
It's no different to which glass bottle are you gonna choose? Which manufacturer you choose, which label are you choosing, which cork, right? They're all priced items. Carbon impact is there as well. And how do you drive down the cost, because that's what you need to do in order to make the business more profitable, especially as we all get squeezed with a bit of inflation.
But how do you drive down those costs? So we absolutely have to avoid it in our supply chain. We have to avoid it wherever we can. Then the business decisions like. Fully investing in a hundred percent electric distillery, which is very unusual by the way. Um, we think we might be the only one at our scale, but it's that decision.
We have a closed chiller circuit that does essentially what I used to do in the lab, you know, with a ethylene glycol kind of mix. So those sort of things bring across. And then natural decisions, despite the fact they might be slightly more expensive to install. Distilleries tend to have a big impact in terms of just firing natural gas and then cooling with running water, and that's where they have a huge impact, let alone the distribution of heavy glass bottles.
So yeah, there's plenty of work to be done.
Micah: So the carbon offsets or the carbon removal offsets is sort of the last resort. You're trying to reduce the amount of emissions throughout the business as much as possible. And whatever's remaining then is this internal carbon tax that you've put on yourself.
Russ Wakeham: Correct. And you, uh. Driven into that decision by looking at things with, is this the most expensive option? You weigh it up, right? You buy this cheaper component here, perhaps the glass bottles are cheaper from China, but wow, there's a big carbon impact if you're gonna stick it on a massive boat for six months.
So you have to balance those decisions. And so what you end up with is the kind of least bad option right now, but it also makes us. Work really hard to think about what's coming, what's new? Well, gimme, gimme the best one. As soon as there's a, the holier that's moving pallets with an electric lorry, I'm the first to take it because it'll save me a, a bucket of money and we've become a bit more profitable and the business will make sense.
Right?
Micah: Is carbon neutrality or in your case, carbon negativity possible without an offset mechanism.
Russ Wakeham: Can't see how you would do that maybe ever, because there's so hard to decarbonize certain aspects, right? The scale of the challenge obviously increases, but you've gotta think that shipping isn't necessarily gonna be soon in the same way that aviation isn't gonna be soon.
And so you will have those bits of your supply chain. In a global, yeah. Supply chain network that we live in, it'll be there. The only way that you could probably achieve a big, big reduction is you had some kind of carbon capture and storage on site. We produce quite a lot of CO2 from the fermentation, and although that is neutral in terms of the plant that grew, and when you ferment it, it releases that equivalent CO2.
If you could capture it and permanently store that, then you would have a way to reduce your impact even further. So you might be able to do it, but through an internal offsets, I guess.
Chai: To get a sense of Russ Wakeham's challenge, let's talk about two of the biggest carbon culprits. He mentioned global shipping and aviation.
Micah: Right now, shipping accounts for about 3% of the world's total emissions, and some projections push that number closer to 10%. If current growth continues, aviation isn't far behind. All in all, that's a lot of carbon.
Chai: And let's be real. It's hard to imagine modern life without planes and cargo ships, so the race is on to decarbonize them.
Micah: Hydrogen has shown promise as a cleaner fuel for shipping, but if you caught our episode with NeuN Kasik, you'll know hydrogen is complex and not always as green as it seems.
Chai: In July, 2023, the International Maritime Organization or IMO laid out a new climate strategy aiming for net zero emissions by around 2050.
Their near term goals include cutting emissions by 20 to 30% by 2030, and by 70 to 80% by 2040. That's all compared to 2008 levels.
Micah: So here's the big question. What happens to scale when you start to care about carbon?
Russ Wakeham: I mean, we are never gonna be a Bacardi. Because we cannot achieve that low cost, but perhaps we couldn't anyway, even if we didn't care about the carbon impact, then the way that we, we achieve it is by being really, really smart about how much we've reduced. I mean the carbon impact, if I put, maybe I put it in context as to how we sit against our competitors.
An average bottle of rum is somewhere like three kilos of CO2 that it causes in terms of, and we are down at 1.2, so you know, there's a big avoidance in a whole supply chain there. That actually saves you a lot of money as well because they tend, they tend to go hand in hand. But in order to keep profitable, you have to keep evolving and you have to keep driving down the cost.
And so that requires you to be flexible.
Chai: Yeah. So high carbon intensity is an approach to short-term profitability. Low intensity is a long-term profitability strategy. So how does this shift in approach work in an economic system that tends to really, really reward short-term profits?
Russ Wakeham: Yeah, it makes it really challenging.
So like in particular, the biggest challenge starts to come when you start asking for money. We've just been through that phase. We did a crowdfunding campaign that ended last week. It's people's money, right? It's the private person's money. But if when you start to go to institutional money and they look at it and they go hang on, firstly, they don't understand that it can scale normally it, that's the first question you get from.
People with that mindset is how does this scale? You can't possibly keep it profitable and but when you build it in to your price, right, of course it scales because it's just, it's just the same, right? If the, the price didn't work at this scale, it's never gonna work. It's not a case of that business decision.
It's always kept within what we do. That doesn't translate across when with the short termism, the short term is right. I need a two year way to make this much money. Out of you growing from this size to this side that we can do, and actually the way that we always have those conversations is like forget about the carbon negative side that sits underneath and we do spend like.
Most of our time talking about it, I guess, but frustrated because it's the rum that we want to talk about, right? That's the product that you work really hard. That's what we are here for. It's just that we didn't wanna make a business that harmed the planet at the same time as, as making the rum.
Micah: Is this kind of sustainable business model influencing the broader spirits industry? There might not be a direct link, but there are some shifts like brands rethinking their packaging and adjusting their messaging.
Chai: Some have trialed recycled packaging and made carbon neutrality pledges.
Micah: The bottom line is that the two Drifters distillery is an outlier in the business world.
Chai: It's unusual to voluntarily put a carbon tax on one's own business,
Micah: but Russ Wakeham thinks there's even more they can do to cut carbon out of their supply chain.
Russ Wakeham: You've only got so much you can do. Once you've electrified and removed the kind of fossil fuel element of that, how you're powering all the energy inputs and you've removed all of the emissions from the transport that you can control.
There's only so much left, but there's still quite a lot of water use that we have at the distillery. Of course, just in production. You know, it takes several liters to make a liter of rum. So bringing that number down, you can focus on, but there's only so much savior you can have. And you think about this journey of the boat coming across, uh, from Brazil or Africa.
It's like, you know, and then every now and again, we're right by extra airport. A plane will take off. It'd be like, well that's undone or years worth of kind of, uh, impact. So yeah, it's tough, but.
Micah: You mentioned water, is there anything from your perspective as a chemist where you can see, you know, making adjustments in the distilling process that might be less resource intensive?
Russ Wakeham: Yeah, so the distilling process itself, there's efficiency to be had in terms of the condensing, I'm on mark two of my condensers, but this is a, a homemade thing. We basically have, I'm not homemade, but industrially made. It's a brewery kettle, right? A whole brewery. So if you just think of a stainless steel kettle bottom and then a copper condenser top, it's made from industrial copper pipe.
So kind of three inch pipe and. There's ways, obviously ways that people have spent, well, hundreds of years perfecting condensers of that sort of shape. And you know, we, we know we're not anywhere near the most efficient because it's very hard to get something that you can build cheaply like that, right?
You can imagine all these kind of swirly copper things, so yes. In that respect, that would reduce some of it. But that's a closed chiller circuit. So it is not using running water. Now. The running water aspect is in the cleaning. Right. And the development that you can kind of make from a chemist perspective is to think about how could we make the cleaning chemicals less aggressive because they're still kind of nasty and you have to treat them and neutralize stuff.
But equally, is there a way to make it more effective from a chemistry perspective? But that, you know, that's a global challenge as well. 'cause it's. Plenty of chemicals being chucked into the water systems that then have to get processed that cause emissions. So yeah, from that perspective, the other big one is the waste that you get from fermentation itself.
So ferment, but the only bit that's turned into alcohol is all the fermentable sugars, of course. And so what's left behind is unfermentable sugars plus a lot of water. Now that's pretty valuable still. A commodity. Cattle food is what molasses has brought to the UK for, and we, although we transport out the waste to a farmer, if you could concentrate it and get rid of some of the water and perhaps recycle that back into the system from a chemistry perspective, this sounds like a good membrane job.
You're thinking that's probably quite good. It's a money question. Do I, do I spend money on making that stuff work? Or do I make sure that we can sell more rums so that perhaps at some point we can spend more money to get that work? So I'm stuck in that position, but I would love to accelerate through all of that because that's, yeah, that's the bit that I like.
Yeah.
Chai: So there's still a lot more opportunities and unfortunately you can't clone yourself yet. Oh,
Russ Wakeham: yes.
Chai: Not yet.
Russ Wakeham: Gimme time.
Micah: So what advice would you give to other founders or businesses who are looking to put sustainability at the core of their business model?
Russ Wakeham: Uh, do it earlier. I think the earlier you can build it into your business, the simpler, I guess, the simpler it becomes. Although it's often used as an excuse not to do anything.
'cause it's, it's too hard to retrofit because once you've got it ingrained and part of the DNA, then it never goes away. Try to squeeze things in later on. It's obviously you can always find a reason not to do things right. Oh, we'll do that soon. You know, we'll wait for someone else to do it and then see if, if that looks great, and yeah.
Yeah, that's my advice. For what it's worth,
Micah: do you think we're going to ever get to a point where sustainability and profitability are seen as complimentary rather than sort of a dichotomy that one has to navigate?
Russ Wakeham: I, I mean, I always agonize over this. I think for me, that only comes with top down intervention.
So, but it requires the world to do it altogether and so do I realistically think we can achieve that When I see that we can't agree on anything? Uh, no. Probably not. So in an idealist world, you'd like the carbon. The way that we built it into our business to be mandated. But is that realistic? No. If you had that, then you'd have a way to drive those two things together.
Yeah. Profitability and sustainability would directly move together because it would be, it would hit you hard. Equally, the cost of carbon removal would come down very quickly because there'd be a lot more incentive to get the carbon removed and gone. Right. So that would accelerate the entire thing dramatically.
Do I think that, yeah. I just stuck with that realism, that as optimistic as I like to be. No, it won't work. Well, kind of probably what will happen is that we'll move like we are right fits and starts and there'll be some something that happens, maybe some terrible catastrophe causes people to rethink and that really inspires a quick movement of stuff and I just hope that isn't the case.
It's the sad truth.
Micah: Do you feel alone in the, in the amount of transparency you offer, or do you think that's changing?
Russ Wakeham: No, definitely not alone. I think there's a, there's a network of certain businesses you run the risk, of course, of only speaking to people that you want to hear or say the same things in an echo chamber.
So conscious that it could be that. But no, not alone. I think often, even in on a consumer level, you know, we speak to people about whether they care about these issues, they care, they have no idea how to fix it. They really don't trust the decisions that they make actually deliver what they hope. And so there's the kind of like apathy.
I think that's a real issue right now that's a big worry, is that there's just disinterested can't believe marketing because it has been terrible and Unpleased can't believe any of this. So even when we get questioned, they start from a point of complete skepticism and you have to work hard to kind of be like that.
Do I feel alone? Uh. I wish someone else would come and like really, really push us and say, you know, my LCA is slightly better than yours for this reason. That would be cool. I haven't faced that yet, but I'd like that.
Chai: Yeah. So for the last question of the day, what advice would you give to others who want to do sustainability work in a business context?
Russ Wakeham: I guess it depends on the context, but it matters doing your bit. Right. The only reason that we started the distillery and did it this way is 'cause I got fed up with being in the lab and talking to people who already knew the solutions as well, but we still couldn't. Do anything about it. And we couldn't change anything.
And like I said earlier, bringing alcohol to the party and talking to people about it is usually a much better way to get people's attention. Certainly people that sit outside of science and see people that sit outside of thinking about the, these issues from this perspective. Right. And little changes you make, do make a difference over time.
Isn't there some crazy stat there if everyone made like. Just a small kind of change in, in the western world, there would be a dramatic effect on the whole planet. So yeah, it matters what you do, and I think you gotta build it from your inside, and basically then the rest will follow. So from a business context, if you take care of how you do things, what your decisions are, your personal decisions, that will affect, and then it's about.
I guess time because a lot of the friction I see from other businesses is that there's someone in the business that just doesn't believe that it's an issue and doesn't care. And it's like profitability, profitability, profitability. And that's a much harder kind of bit to take on. But if you've sorted out your own house, then I guess maybe we could move forward.
Micah: We've been speaking with Russ Wakeham Wakeham. Co-founder of the two Drifters Distillery. So Kai, what were some of your key takeaways from the conversation?
Chai: Well, Russ Wakeham's approach to business is super compelling because he uses it as a vehicle to show what kind of climate action is really possible, especially within a business context.
You know the name two Drifters. Is more than just a name. Russ Wakeham and his company have literally drifted away from the norm in a positive and impactful way.
Micah: Absolutely. And another part of the conversation that really popped out to me is the breakdown of the supply chain elements. Russ Wakeham did a great job of highlighting how.
Complex and challenging it is to take meaningful action on reducing carbon emissions throughout a supply chain, especially because upstream and downstream aspects of the business actually are the largest sources of emission, and that those are the things that the business itself has the least direct influence on.
Chai: I really do wonder what would a world look like where profit and planet go hand in hand?
Micah: Probably it will require thinking on different timescales than the quarterly driven profit cycle. Sustainability probably won't have strong ROI in the short term, but of course on a longer time scale, the ability to create a planet that is productive and livable for all of us is going to have an enormous ROI.
Chai: This has been balancing the future from METTLER TOLEDO.
Micah: What questions about science and technology would you like answered in a future episode?
Chai: Let us know by leaving a review or if you listen to Spotify, leave us a message in the comment section
Micah: and be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
